Last week I hosted an IEEE Hot Interconnects Panel with the above title. We were lucky enough to secure some time from the following luminaries, and it made for an excellent panel:
- Andy Gospodarek, Broadcom, Open Sourcerer
- Pradeep Sindhu, Fungible, CEO
- Michael Kagan, NVIDIA, CTO
- Vipin Jain, Pensando, CTO
- Gordon Brebner, Xilinx, CTO Staff & Fellow
Clicking on the image below should take you to the 90 minute Youtube video of our panel discussion. For those who are just interested in the highlights you can read below for some of the interesting facts pulled from our discussion.
Here are some key points that contain significant value from the above panel discussion:
- Here are some points made during this panel discussion which I found valuable: 1. SmartNICs provide a second computing domain inside the server that could be used for security, orchestration, and control plane tasks. While some refer to this as an air-gapped domain it isn’t, but it is far more secure than running inside the same x86 system domain. This can be used to securely enable bare-metal as a service. — Michael Kagan
- Several vendors are actively collaborating on a Portable NIC Architecture (PNA) designed to execute P4 code. When available, it would then be possible to deliver containers with P4 code that could run on any NIC that supported this PNA model. — Vipin Jain
- The control plane needs to execute in the NIC for two reasons, first to offload the host CPU from what is quickly become 30% overhead for processing network traffic, and second to improve the determinism of the applications running on the server. –Vipin Jain
- App stores are inevitable, when is the question. While some think it could be years, others believe it will happen within a year. Xilinx has partnered with a company that already has one for FPGA accelerators so the leap to SmartNICs shouldn’t be that challenging. –Gordon Brebner
- The ISA is un-important, it’s the micro-architecture that matters. Fungible selected MIPS-64 because of it’s support for simultaneous multi-threaded execution with fine-grained context switching. — Pradeep Sindhu. While others feel that the eco-system of tools and the wide access to developers is most important and that is why they’ve selected ARM.
- It should be noted that normally the ARM cores are NOT in the data plane.
The first 18 minutes are introductions and marketing messages. While these are educational, they are also somewhat canned marketing messages. The purpose of a panel discussion was to ask questions that the panel hadn’t seen in advance so we could draw out of them honest perspectives and feedback from their years of experience.
IMHO, here are some of the interesting comments, with who made them and where to find them:
18:50 Michael – The SmartNIC is a different computational domain, a computer in-front of a computer, and ideal for security. It can supervise or oversee all system I/O, key thing is that it is a real computer.
23:00 Gordon – Offloading the host CPU to the SmartNIC and enabling programmability of the device is critically important. We’ll also see functions and attributes of switches being merged into these SmartNICs.
24:50 Andy – Not only data plane offload, but control plane offload from the host is also critically important. Also hardware, in the form of on chip logic, should be applied to data plane offload whenever possible so that ARM cores are NOT being placed in the data plane.
26:00 Andy – Dropped the three letter string that most hardware providers cringe when we hear it, SDK. He stressed the importance of providing one. It should be noted that Broadcom at this point, as far as I know, appears to be the only SmartNIC OEM that provides a customer facing SmartNIC SDK.
26:50 Vipin – A cloud based device that is autonomous from the system and remotely manageable. Has it’s own brain, and that truly runs independently of the host CPU.
29:33 Pradeep – There is no golden rule, or rule of thumb like 1Gb/sec/core like what AMD has said. It’s important to determine what computations should be done in the DPU, multiplexing and stateful applications are ideal. General purpose CPUs are made for processing single threaded applications very fast, horrible at multiplexing.
33:37 Andy – 1Gb/core is really low, I’d not be comfortable with that. I would consider DPDK, or XDP and it would blow that metric away. People shouldn’t settle for this metric.
35:24 Michael – Network needs to take care of the network on it’s own, so zero core for an infinite number of Gigabits.
36:45 Gordon – The SmartNIC is a kinda filtering device, where sophisticated functions like IPS, can be offloaded into the NIC.
40:57 Andy – The Trueflow logic delivers a 4-5X improvement in packet processing. There are a very limited number of people really concerned with hitting line rate packet per second at these speeds. In the data center these PPS requirements are not realistic.
42:25 Michael – I support what Andy said, these packet rates are not realistic in the data center.
44:20 Pradeep – We’re having this discussion because general purpose CPUs can no longer keep up. This is not black and white, but a continuum, where does general processing end and a SmartNIC pick up. GRPC as an example needs to be offloaded. The correct interface is not TCP or RDMA, both are too low level. GRPC is a modern level for this communication interface. We need to have architectural innovation because scale out is here to stay!
46:00 Gordon – One thing about being FPGA based is that we can support tons of I/O. With FPGAs we don’t think in terms of cores, we look at I/O volumes, several years ago we first started looking at 100GbE then figured out how to do that and extended it to 400GbE. We can see the current way scaling well into the Terabit range. While we could likely provide Terabit range performance today it would be far to costly, it’s a price point issue, and nobody would buy it, the cost of doing things is also an issue.
48:35 Michael – CPUs don’t manage data efficiently. We have dedicated hardware engines and TCAM along with caches to service these engines, that’s the way it works.
49:45 Pradeep – The person asking the question perhaps meant control flow and not flow control, while they sound the same they mean different things. Control flow is what a CPU does, flow control is what networking does. A DPU or SmartNIC needs to do both well to be successful. It appears, and I could be wrong, that Pradeep is using pipeline to refer to consecutive stages of execution on a single macro resource like a DPU then chain as a collection of pipelines that provide a complete solution.
54:00 Vipin – Sticking with fixed function execution than line rate is possible. We need to move away from focusing on processing TCP packets, and shift focus to messages with a run-to-completion model. It is a general purpose program running in the data path.
57:20 Vipin – When it came to selecting our computational architecture it was all about ecosystem, and widely available resources and tooling. We [Pensando] went with ARM.
58:20 Pradeep – The ISA is an utter detail, it’s the macro-architecture that matters, not the micro instruction architecture. We chose MIPS because of the implementation which is a simultaneous multi-threaded implementation which is far and away a much better fine grained context switching. Much much better than anything else out there. There is also the economic price/performance to be considered.
1:00:12 Michael – I agree with Vipin it’s a matter of ecosystem, we need to provide a platform for people to develop. We’re not putting ARMs on the data path. So this performance consideration Pradeep has mentioned is not relevant. The key is providing an ecosystem that attracts as many developers as possible, and making their lives easier to produce great value on the device.
1:01:08 Andy – I agree 100%, that’s why we selected ARM, ecosystem drove our choice. With ARM their are enough Linux distributions, and you could be running containers on your NIC. The transition to ARM is trivial.
1:02:30 Gordon – Xilinx mixes ARM cores with programmable FPGA logic, and hard IP cores for things like encryption.
1:03:49 Pradeep – The real problem is the data path, but clearly ARM cores are not in the data path so they are doing control plane functions. Everyone says they are using ARM cores because of the rich ecosystem, but I’d argue that x86 has a richer ecosystem. If that’s the case then why NOT keep the control plane then in the hosts? So why does the control plane need to be imbedded inside the chip?
1:04:45 Vipin – Data path is NOT in ARM. We want it on a single die, we don’t want it hoping across many wires and killing performance. The kind of integration I can do by subsuming the ARM cores into my die is tremendous. That’s why it can not be on Intel. [Once you go off die performance suffers, so what I believe Vipin means is that he can configure on the die whatever collection of ARM cores, and hard logic he wants, and wire it together how best he sees fit to meet the needs of their customers. He can’t license x86 cores and integrate them on the same die as he can with ARM cores.] Plus if he did throw an x86 chip on the card it would blow his power budget [PCIe x16 lane cards are limited to 75W].
1:06:30 Michael – We don’t have as tight an integration with data-path and ARMs as Pensando. If you want to segregate computing domains between application tier and infrastructure tier you need another computer and putting an x86 on a NIC just isn’t practical.
1:07:10 Andy – The air-gap, bare-metal as a service, use case is a very popular one. Moving control plane functions off the x86 to the NIC, frees up x86 cores and enables a more deterministic environment for my applications.
1:08:50 Gordon – Having that programable logic alongside the ARM cores gives you both the control plane offload as well as dynamically being able to modify the data plane locally.
1:10:00 Michael – We are all for users programming the NIC we are providing an SDK, and working with third parties to host their applications and services on our NICs.
1:10:15 Andy – One of the best things we do it outreach, where we provide NICs to university developers, they disappear for a few months then return with completed applications or new use cases. Broadcom doesn’t want to tightly control how people use their devices, it isn’t open if it is limited by what’s available on the platform.
1:13:20 Vipin – Users should be allowed to own and define their own SDK to develop on the platform.
1:14:20 Pradeep – We provide programming stacks [libraries?] that are available to users through RestAPIs.
1:15:38 Gordon – We took an early lead in helping define the P4 language for programming network devices. Which became Barefoot Networks switch chips, but we’ve embraced it since very early on. We actually have a P4 to Verilog compiler so you can turn your P4 code into logic. The main SmartNIC functions inside Xilinx are written in P4. Then there are plug-ins where others can add their own P4 functions into the pipeline.
1:17:35 Michael – Yes, an app-store for our NIC, certainly. It’s a matter of how it is organized. For me it is somewhere users can go where they can safely download containerized applications or services which can then run on the SmartNIC.
1:18:20 Vipin – The App Store is a little ways out there, it is a good idea. We are working in the P4 community towards standards. He mentions PNA, the Portable NIC Architecture as an abstraction. [OMG, this is huge, and I wish I wasn’t juggling the balls trying to keep the panel moving as this would have been awesome to dig into. A PNA could then enable the capability to have containerized P4 applications that could potentially run across multiple vendors SmartNICs.] He also mentioned that you will need NIC based applications, and a fabric with infrastrucutre applications so that NICs on opposite sides of a fabric can be coordinated
1:21:30 Pradeep, An App Store at this point may be premature. In the long term something like an App Store will happen.
1:22:25 Michael, things are moving much faster these days, maybe just another year for SmartNICs and an App Store.
1:23:45 Gordon, we’ve been working with Pensando and others on the PNA concept with P4 for some time.
1:28:40 Vipin, ..more coming as I listen again on Wednesday.
For those curious the final vote was three for DPU and two for SmartNIC, but in the end the customer is the real winner.